Trial Transcripts

Defense Witness #2: Nurija Beganovic

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BRANDBORG:

Q	Good afternoon, Mr. Beganovic. Am I saying that correctly?
A	Yes.
Q	Okay, Mr. Beganovic, could you please state your full name for the record?
A	Nurija Beganovic.
Q	Could you spell that please?
A	N as in – N-u-r-i-j-a, last name B as in boy, e-g-a-n-o-v-i-c.
Q	And in which town do you live, around here?
A	Fargo.
Q	Fargo, okay. How long have you been in Fargo?
A	March, it’s gonna be eight years.
Q	Okay, and you don’t need – you understand me fine, you don’t need an interpreter or anything?
A	Yeah, I do, yeah.
Q	Okay. Mr. Beganovic, do you – are you employed?
A	Huh?
Q	Are you employed anywhere?
A	Self-employed.
Q	What do you do?
A	Scrap metal.
Q	Okay, and do you in fact know Mr. Hidanovic?
A	Yeah, yes I do.
Q	Okay, and how do you know him?
A	I know him back – even back from Bosnia, and then we know each other from Germany, and then we know each other from here, so.
Q	You said you knew him back from Bosnia, is the Bosnian community here in Fargo pretty tight knit?
A	Yeah.
Q	And is that because a lot of them knew each other back in Bosnia?
A	Yeah, back –yeah.
Q	Okay, so in a way it’s almost a transplanted community?
A	Yes, it is, basically behind twenty years, probably fifteen years from a lot other cultures, you know.
Q	Sure. Do you remember back last summer at the Cass County Fair, it was on the 24th of June. There was an incident involving a riot?
A	Yes I do.
Q	And on that day, were you in fact out at the Cass County Fair?
A	Yes.
Q	Tell the jury when you arrived at the fair, time wise.
A	I’ll just try to say the time, but I’m not sure positive, hundred percent, but it was probably from 7:00 – probably to 8:30 – 9:00, somewhere around there. And I came there, I parked my car where the farmers are, where you go in – you can go in the buildings and shop and buy stuff and –
Q	Where the livestock show is?
A	Huh?
Q	The livestock show?
A	Yes, yeah, behind on the north, more on the north side, northwest I think somewhere around there. And I parked my car there and I called them, we gonna meet there, so I came over there, I parked my car behind and then the first time I saw him was at the – we were guessing our weight. There’s a guy you pay him, and if you guess the weight you win, you know.
Q	Let me stop you there a second. So you walk into the fair, and you immediately see Mr. Hidanovic and his family?
A	Well, when you walk in there, probably is like where my car was, probably hundred and fifty foot to hundred foot probably to go over there, so – and those are – he was the first guy, because I called him and I said, you know, where are you at? So I can park my car, you know, so I parked my car there and then, you know.
Q	So you walked into the fair and he was right there?
A	Yeah.
Q	Who was he with?
A	He was there – his –Chanda, his wife, his kids, I think it was her kids too, and I think it was Anna – Anna was there too.
Q	Anna, you mean Annie Lund?
A	Yeah, Annie Lund, yeah.
Q	So you saw – you saw Annie Lund at the fair that day?
A	Yes, yes I did.
Q	Now, you were there doing some kind of a guessing game or something?
A	Yeah.
Q	Tell the jury a little bit about that.
A	If you – there’s a scale you can – the guy will like ask you about – he will guess your age and your weight.          And if you win, if he has it wrong you can pick out like a bear or, you know, something for your kids or you know – and he guessed mine, but he didn’t – he guessed mine wrong. And I got like a bear and I gave it to one of his kids.
Q	So you won a prize and gave it to one of Mr. –
A	Yes.
Q	-- Hidanovic’s kids?
A	Yeah.
Q	Okay. Mr. Beganovic how long were you with Mr. Hidanovic that evening?
A	We were the whole time together.
Q	From the time you got there?
A	Yes.
Q	Okay, at any point during that entire day, did you ever see Mr. Hidanovic with a bat?
A	No.
Q	How about a knife?
A	No.
Q	During that time did you in fact have time to see what in fact he was wearing that day?
A	You can’t miss that.
Q	Can you describe for the jury what it was?
A	Well it was like, if – back in Florida –we went to Florida, me him and his brother to buy a car over there. And both of them bought those shoes, and I’ve said like, I’m not wearing those shoes, so both of them bought those shoes. They basically looked like the helpers from – the elves, you know what I mean.
Q	Elf shoes?
A	Yeah, so I said those are elf shoes, so I – you know so I didn’t want to wear those.
Q	And on that day you saw him wearing those shoes?
A	Yeah, he wore those shoes, he wore – we bought – all three of us bought the same pants, so it was the light – the white Florida pants, it was like thinner pants. And he got, he got a shirt like that, his brother got a shirt like that, it’s – I mean there’s no way you can miss that guy, I mean –
Q	What – describe the shirt?
A	It’s a – it’s like yellow, red, blue, it’s like, I mean you can’t miss it.
Q	Would you recognize a shirt, either that shirt or one like it if you saw it again?
A	Oh yeah.

MR. BRANDBORG:  Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT:  You may.

Q	(BY MR. BRANDBORG)  Mr. Beganovic, pick up that shirt if you would, and look at it. Does that look like the shirt or one similar to it that Mr. Hidanovic was wearing that day?
A	Yeah, it is this one.
Q	It is?
A	Yeah. I don’t know if it’s the same one, but I mean it’s exactly the colors and –
Q	The kind of wild colors?
A	Yeah.
Q	Okay.

MR. BRANDBORG:  Your Honor, may I approach again?
THE COURT:  You may.

Q	(MR. BRANDBORG)  And if I could have you do the same thing with that pair of pants.
A	I got the same pants too. Like I said before, me him and his brother bought the same pants. I mean they’re nice in summer, but I don’t know if I want to wear them in the fair, but –
Q	Do those look like the pants or ones similar to it that he was wearing on the night of the fair?
A	Yes, those are the same ones.

MR. BRANDBORG: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: You may.

A	I think you can buy them around here.
Q	And last I have this elf shoes as you described them.
A	Yes.
Q	Are those in fact the pair of shoes that Mr. Hidanovic was wearing on the day of the fair?
A	Yes.
Q	And are those the shoes you were talking about he purchased in – I think you said Florida?
A	Florida, yup.
Q	And those look like either the same pair similar to –
A	Same ones.
Q	Okay. Now you’re spending time with their family, are the kids going on rides?
A	Mean like – how long was I (indiscernible), you know, so I can’t – you know what I mean, I can not be hundred percent for sure – because I did not – they were not my kids, so I did not pay attention where the kids went, you know what I mean?
Q	Sure. Let me ask, maybe this would be more fair then, instead of specific rides, were they having fun?
A	Yes.
Q	Okay.
A	I think they were in a – like a – I don’t know what they call it , it’s like a house, a Fun House I think.
Q	A Fun House, okay.
A	You go inside, you got lost or something like that, I don’t know, lost.
Q	Did you ever decide to go on a ride?
A	Yes.
Q	And could you describe to the jury what that ride was?
A	It was like a  -- I call it a Spiderman – Superman, I don’t know. You go in there, there’s like three chairs, and you hang on to it, you lay on your stomach, on your chest. It will spin around and go higher. So I told him and Chanda, let’s go on there, let’s go on there.
Q	So there’s three chairs?
A	Yes.
Q	And who did you go on the ride with?
A	Me, Mevludin and Chanda.
Q	Okay, and so you – do you know about the time that was?
A	Not really.
Q	Okay, was it dark out?
A	Huh?
Q	Was it dark out?
A	It was cloudy.
Q	It was cloudy?
A	It was cloudy, yeah, it was cloudy.
Q	How long did that ride last?
A	Well I bought the tickets – I bought the tickets and I don’t know, probably four minutes – five minutes – three minutes, I don’t know that ride goes around, so.
Q	Okay, now as the ride was coming to a halt, were your cell phones ringing?
A	I was – because I had some pants, I didn’t have pockets behind, and I couldn’t put it in my jacket.
Q	Put what?
A	My cell phone, and I couldn’t put it right here, because you know when you lay on it, it’ll you know—so I had my phone on like this and it was – and I was holding myself. So we were spinning, and the phone was ringing, so I pulled that thing on, and I  -- you know I hear him you know, like saying (indiscernible) gonna fight, you know.
Q	Who – let me stop you there, who do you hear?
A	Huh?
Q	Who was calling you?
A	I do not remember who it was, because I mean we have like everybody else phone number. Like you said before, we are all tight, you know I mean, we are all like, even if we were not family or something, you know. We are all related somehow, and I don’t remember who called.
Q	So somebody calls you, are they excited?
A	Yeah, they were like, they were screaming and hey, we gonna fight, we gonna fight, you know.
Q	And so as the ride slows down, you’re obviously concerned about what’s going gone.
A	I told the guy who – the guy, know like you give the tickets who turns on the machine.  I was screaming at him, you know to stop. I mean, but whose going to stop it, you know?
Q	Sure.
A	So we stop, we went downstairs, Chanda had her shoes, Chanda couldn’t have her shoes on, you know.
Q	She had taken them off for the ride?
A	Yeah, cause it was like, I don’t know, it was some kind of shoes, you know like you can not tie like this, you know. And when we got off, our phones started ringing, everybody started to panic, I see people, like you know, everywhere from over there, cause it wasn’t really, you know, it wasn’t too far, you know. But like you can see people coming running out of there, you know.
Q	Let me stop you there. So you see a commotion going on?
A	Yeah.
Q	How far away do you think that is from where you are when you get off the ride?
A	I don’t know, four hundred feet – three hundred feet, it was –
Q	Quite a ways?
A	Yeah, it was quite a ways, but I mean when you see so many people, you know like, you know ten people panicking, I mean you can, you know you can see it.
Q	So, is it fair to say it was far enough away that you couldn’t see what was happening?
A	No, no I couldn’t see what happened.
Q	Now, the children aren’t on this ride with you?
A	No, the children were downstairs, down and – there was a booth right there, they were standing there. They were holding a purse, Chanda’s purse, they were just standing there.
Q	And up to this point, Mr. Hidanovic is – he’s been with you the whole time?
A	Yes.
Q	And he’s with you now as you get off the ride?
A	Yes.
Q	What happens next?
A	Well when the phone started ringing – when the phone started ringing, the phone rings, you know, I knew it’s fighting, you know. I know a lot of my friends are there, you know, so I ran really hard, he was right behind me, you know. We ran – as soon as I came over there I see – well, here’s a fight right here. There’s like the bridge is, you know, the little bridge is like right here and you have the cars over here. And we saw – I see people like running over there, you know, our you know, our brothers, our families, you know, our friends, you know who were in the fight, you know. So people are running, and I turn around, I see one guy – one guy he hit one Mexican or whoever it was, hit one of our friends, you know. I don’t like the guy, you know, so I didn’t even pay attention to him, you know. So Mevludin was – Mevludin was right – the whole time right with me, and I said to Mevludin, I’m like everybody left, don’t do anything, you know that’s what he told me too, and we were right there.
Q	So when you got there was the fight – you said you saw somebody get hit, but was the fight essentially over?
A	Yeah.
Q	Was there a reason that Mr. Hidanovic was worried and in a hurry to get over there?

MR. BOENING:  Objection, leading.

A	Uhm.

THE COURT:  Objection – hold on sir. Objection sustained. You can rephrase that question.

Q	(BY MR. BRANDBORG)  Did in fact Mr. Hidanovic have family that he was concerned with?
A	Yes.
Q	Now as you get over to this location, did Mr. Hidanovic take out a bat and hit anybody?
A	No.
Q	Did he assault anybody with his fists?
A	No.
Q	Did he kick anybody?
A	No.
Q	And you were with him the whole time?
A	Yes. When we were like fighting – when they were like fighting you know, and the kids were there. Somebody called in one of his families (sic) members, called him (indiscernible), I think – and about to take his kid. To take his kid, because his kid is there, but he already ran away, his dad.
Q	Okay.
A	And –
Q	Let me stop you a second, so after – let me jump back a little bit, when you first arrived on the scene, about how many people would you say were involved in this melee, from what you saw, not from what you heard?
A	What I saw?
Q	What you saw?
A	The people who were running, to count them too or just the people who were right there?
Q	Running people too?
A	A lot, probably from the Bosnian side, probably twelve – ten – twelve.
Q	Okay, now after this is all over, what do you do?
A	We take the kids – we take kids and – we take our kid out of there, we leave, I go in my car. He goes with his car, and Chanda took – I know Chanda took one kid and took him home to his dad’s house, his cousin’s kid.
Q	Okay.
A	So.

MR. BRANDBORG: I have nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Cross examination for the State.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BOENING:

Q	Sir, you’ve been referring to the Bosnian community here in the Fargo Moorhead area, is that correct?
A	Yes.
Q	Is there a difference between the Bosnian community and the Roma Bosnian community?
A	Yes.
Q	Which community are you a member of?
A	We don’t have – we don’t have no communities, you know like community house or whatever. I’m actually both, it’s – we’re more the gypsies, the Roma, like you said. We’re more together than the Bosnian people are.
Q	Okay, and so you say you’re both, you lived in Bosnia, is that correct?
A	Yeah.
Q	But you’re a member of the Roma community, or as you put it, the gypsy community in Bosnia, is that correct?
A	Yes.
Q	And so you’ve lived in Bosnia with the Defendant, you’ve live in Germany with the Defendant?
A	Yes.
Q	And now you’re living in the United States with the Defendant, is that correct?
A	Yes.
Q	And how long have you known him?
A	Since I was old, because he’s older than me, I’m twenty-four years old, I’ll be twenty-five, so.
Q	And how long have you known him?
A	I guess twenty-four.
Q	So you’ve known him since you were an infant, your whole life?
A	Yeah, I have been knowing him my whole life.
Q	Okay.
A	As far as I remember myself, I remember him.
Q	And as you’ve described it, the Roma community is very tight, is that right?
A	Yes.
Q	And so everybody has their cell phones set up that only one person needs to call and everybody gets notice if something’s happening, correct?
A	I don’t know how you want to put that together, but you know if somebody calls, let’s say if somebody calls me, hey I’m in trouble, I’m fighting with somebody. You know, if I can help, I’ll be there.
Q	And that would go for the whole Roma community, correct?
A	No, no. I mean not everybody likes everybody, you know. You know, not everybody, you know, doesn’t matter how many gypsy people or Romanian people are there, somehow they’re not related or somehow they fight back home or they don’t like each other, you know.
Q	Sir, if you lived in Germany, you’re aware that in German, gypsies are referred to as Zigeuner, correct?
A	Yes.

MR. BRANDBORG:  Objection, relevance.
MR. BOENING:  I would like –
THE COURT:  I’ll overrule the objection, you may proceed Mr. Boening. You can renew your objection, see where we’re going with this. Mr. Boening.

Q	(BY MR. BOENING)  Sir, would you prefer that someone like me here in American refer to you as Roma or gypsy, or doesn’t it matter?
A	To me – a lot people don’t like it – to call them gypsy, but I am a gypsy, so I’m not ashamed of it, and I don’t care how you call me.
Q	Zigeuner –
A	As long as you don’t hit me.
	Zigeuner’s a bad word in German, right?

MR. BRANDBORG:  Objection again, Your Honor.

A	No.

MR. BRANDBORG: I don’t see the relevance in his questioning.
THE COURT:  Objection overruled. You can answer the question, sir.

A	I can answer?

THE COURT:  Yup, you may.

A	No, it’s not. It depends how you feel. It depends how you feel about yourself.
Q	(BY MR. BOENING)  How long have you been self employed in the scrap metal business with the Defendant?
A	I work with him for four – four –five months, and then we quit. He went with his cousin, and I’ve been by myself since then.
Q	At the time of this incident in June of 2006, where you work – were in business with the Defendant at that time?
A	How long ago was that?
Q	June of 2006.
A	Think so, think.
Q	Your version is that you were with the Defendant, and the Defendant was not involved in the fight on the fairgrounds, is that correct?
A	Yes.
Q	But as I understand it, you and the Defendant saw the tail end of the fight at the fairgrounds, correct?
A	Yes.
Q	So if the Defendant told the Investigator Kulesa that he didn’t see the fight, that would not be true, would it?
A	Yeah.
Q	Because he did in fact see the fight, at least according to you?
A	What I saw, you know I cannot have his eves, and he cannot have my eyes. What I saw – when I saw a guy hit just that one guy, he hit him, you know, and I don’t like that guy, he doesn’t like that guy, you know. And I wasn’t going to help him out, so I didn’t care about him.
Q	But as I understand it, you ran with the Defendant towards the scene of the fight, correct?
A	Oh yeah.
Q	And when you got to the scene of the fight, there was fighting going on, or it was just ending, correct?
A	It was ending, there was – people were running, people were running, and I saw one guy he hit him once, and that was it. Nobody else – everybody else panicked, a lot of people probably looking for their kids, a lot of people running, screaming, you know.
Q	I think you indicated that you were out at the fairgrounds with the Defendant, his wife, Chanda and their kids. How many kids do they have?
A	Four, I mean he has two, his wife has two, and there was at the end, there was two more kids.
Q	Do you know roughly what the Defendant’s and his wife’s children ages are? What is their age range, do you know?
A	I know (indiscernible) is I think nine or ten – ten. His daughter, seven – eight, and I think her kids are the same age too, somewhere around there I think.
Q	I think we had another witness testify that they were anywhere from five to ten years old, does that sound right?
A	Yeah.
Q	So your testimony is that you went on a ride with the Defendant and his wife, and you left the four kids alone, is that correct?
A	What?
Q	You left the four kids alone, right?
A	I did not pay attention to the kids, like I said before they were not my kids.
Q	Right, but the kids didn’t go on the ride with you, the Defendant and his wife, did they?
A	No.
Q	And so they were someplace, weren’t they?
A	Yeah, I saw his kids – I saw his kids, they were right at the bench, like I said before they were like on a bench holding Chanda’s purse, holding some stuff that – the toy that I won, that I gave his daughter. His daughter, his son, whoever I gave –they were there, I know they were there, right there on the bench.
Q	And I think you said that the ride lasted for a number of minutes, is that correct?
A	Yeah.
Q	And while you were on the ride, you supposedly got a phone call, correct?
A	Yes.
Q	Was there a fight on the fairgrounds before you, the Defendant, and his wife went on the ride?
A	Can you repeat that again, please?
Q	Was there a fight on the fairgrounds before you, the Defendant, and his wife went on the ride?
A	I don’t know.
Q	If there had been a fight, you would have received a phone call on it, correct?

MR. BRANDBORG:  Objection, speculation.

A	I don’t know, that –

THE COURT:  Objections overruled, you can answer the question to the best of your ability, sir. Okay, go ahead.

A	No I don’t know, I have no idea if they were –
Q	So it’s your testimony that, you go on the ride, sometime during the ride there’s a phone call with regard to a fight. And by the time you get off the ride, and run to the location of where the fight is, the fights already over?
A	Yeah.
Q	So at best, the fight lasted two or three minutes, maybe four?
A	The fight –

MR. BRANDBORG: Objection –

A	I wasn’t there.

MR. BRANDBORG:  -- the Defendant –
THE COURT:  Hold on sir, what’s your objection Mr. Brandborg?
MR. BRANDBORG:  Your Honor, the Defendant – or the witness has already testified that he wasn’t there at the beginning of the fight. I don’t see how he’d have any personal knowledge of how long the fight lasted, Your Honor.
THE COURT:  The objection is overruled, you can answer. Do you remember the question that asked of you?

A	How long the fight was?

THE COURT:  Do you remember that question, sir?

A	Yes.

THE COURT:  The objection is overruled, you can answer the question to the best of your ability sir. Go ahead.

A	I don’t know, I wasn’t in the fight.
Q	(BY MR. BOENING)  Before you got on the ride, you didn’t see that there was a fight taking place at some distance from you, did you?
A	I did see, like I said – I did see people screaming, people like, you know, it’s different than normal, you know. So I somehow – I somehow knew, you know something is going on, but I didn’t know Bosnian people are fighting.
Q	Gypsies were fighting?
A	Sir, on my passport it doesn’t say Gypsy, it says Bosnian.
Q	I stand corrected, sir.
A	Thank you.
Q	So the Defendants been your friend your entire life, correct?
A	Yes.
Q	You don’t want to see anything bad happen to him as a result of this trial, do you?
A	Nope, if something – I feel if somebody did something, you should pay for it, but I know it’s not him.
Q	And if he told Detective Kulesa that he didn’t see any part of the fight, that would not be accurate, because he was with you as the fight was ending, correct?
A	Like I said, I saw what I saw . If he didn’t see it, because there was a guy hitting a guy one time, so if he didn’t see it, he didn’t see it. What I saw, I told you what I saw, but like I said, I don’t have his eyes.
Q	Your testimony is that perhaps twelve – ten or twelve gypsies were out at the scene of this fight participating in it?
A	Yes.
Q	What are those ten or twelve persons names, sir?
A	I don’t know.
Q	What do you mean you don’t know?
A	I – should I say?
Q	You’re under oath, why not?

THE COURT:  You have to ask a question, Mr. Boening, are you gonna renew your question there or –

Q	What are the names of the persons, the ten or twelve gypsies who you saw participating in the fight?
A	Sir, they were running, so I didn’t – people were running out of there who did not even fight, you know. So how would I tell you the names that I did not see – I can not tell you she hit somebody, but I wasn’t there and I know her name. If I would have saw that person hitting somebody, I would tell you I saw that and that person hitting somebody.
Q	Remember you’re a member of a tight knit community, right?
A	Yes.
Q	And so you know the other members of your community, didn’t you?
A	Yes.
Q	And you could see that there were ten or twelve other gypsies out there?
A	Yes.
Q	And so you must have recognized them as gypsies, correct?
A	Yes.
Q	So, what were their names?
A	Like I said before, people were running, even people who were not even fighting. How would I tell you – how would I tell you that’s the guy? I wasn’t even (indiscernible).
Q	Well you could tell us the names of the ten or twelve gypsies that you saw there, couldn’t you?
A	That were running?
Q	Sure.
A	Give me a piece of paper and I’ll tell you. I write it down for you.

THE COURT:  Sir, you have to answer the question to the best of your ability. Is there some reason why counsel needs this to be written down or sir why –

A	Well, I cannot –
Q	I’m not asking that it be written down.

THE COURT:  Mr. Boening, and sir, are you going to answer the question or are you not going to answer the question?

A	The way he’s asking me, no.

THE COURT:  Okay, so what’s your answer to Mr. Boening’s question then, sir. Under oath, what’s your answer?

A	Like I said before, people were running, all those people who were running, you know, I cannot see their faces, just their backs, you know. I’d recognize some people, you know, but like if I tell you the names, were they in a fight, I don’t know, you know. I’ll tell you some names, you know that I can remember hundred percent, you know.
Q	(BY MR. BOENING) Sir, I don’t want to get into any trouble, so I’m going to withdraw my question. Nothing further.

THE COURT:  Re direct for the defense, Mr. Brandborg.
RE DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BRANDBORG:

Q	Mr. Beganovic, I think I understand what Mr. Boening was getting at. You didn’t see who was in the fight?
A	No.
Q	You said you saw one person getting hit?
A	Yes.
Q	What was his name? Do you remember his first name?
A	Huh?
Q	His first name?
A	If you would pay me now a million dollars, I would not – I would not remember.
Q	Yes.
A	Could you give me some names of the people you just saw there enjoying the fair?
Q	My brother, Sinan.
A	What’s Sinan’s last name? Is that Sinan Suljic?
Q	Suljic.
A	Suljic, okay.
Q	Suljic, sorry.
Q	Did you see Mr. Hidanovic’s brother at the fair?
A	Yes.
Q	What’s his name?
A	Ismet Hidanovic.
Q	Did you see a gentlemen by the name of Fikret Golubovic?
A	Yes, Golubovic..
Q	Golubovic, I can never quite get that one right.
A	Yeah.

MR. BRANDBORG:  Thank you, Your Honor, I have nothing further.
THE COURT:  Recross for the State, Mr. Boening?
MR. BOENING:  Nothing, Your Honor.
THE COURT:  And may this witness be excused for the defense?
MR. BRANDBORG:  Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT:  For the State of North Dakota?
MR. BOENING:  Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT:  Sir, you can step down, you’re free to go, thank you.
MR. BEGANOVIC:  Thank you.